There will be little sympathy in the West as, yet again, besieged Palestinians are bombed by Israel, their immense suffering justified by the term 'Israeli retaliation'
I think you will find that the NAKBA preceded any entity called Hamas. Palestinians have been condemned to this living hell accompanied by the most sordid type of humiliation by the US Israel and the West. As we saw last night, the snipers casually taking aim at the children's heads who had the audacity to throw stones at troops, many actively enjoying this vile take on retaliation. Israel has become a soulless monster.
I think you have it wrong in this regard. Cancel culture - a western leftist ideology for crushing opposition to far left ideas, has crushed free speech in this country. For years there have been murmurs of Israel’s approach to Gaza. And as soon as there is criticism. The cancel culture approach calls them antisemitic. Shutting down discussion. You see this w race, gender, Covid, Ukraine, and vax. All conversation is shut down by the far left as a tool to change speech and thought. Free speech MUST be allowed for the health of our society. We MUST be able to discuss without fear of govt/tech/left attacks, the important concerns many have about sex, science, and war.
Ironically, cancel culture has backfired in this situation. The same leftist that shut every other conversation down, were also shut down when mentioning Gaza conditions.
However, now is NOT the time to be sympathizing w Hammas. What they’ve done is not forgivable.
What you describe has nothing to do with the “far-left.” If it looks left to you, that suggests you have been bamboozled by the narrative that places two very right-wing parties as representing opposing right and left interests. This is a false construct. Please do some research outside the mainstream sources to learn more about what a real left would look like. There hasn’t been a true left, major party in my lifetime, and I’m 78.
Oh I don’t disagree there are no longer independent parties. They all serve the rich. It’s all corrupt. The far left (of which i used to be) is now facist in the def sense. I don’t see the far right with that kind of control. Certainly some in their media, but the left (not dems or progressives) are something else. Seems more socialist and fascist than I remember them being. Perhaps you disagree with all that too.
No, you misunderstood what I wrote. I’m not confused at all. The left, especially the far left are fascist and not the same as dems or progressives and fascism runs the dem party at the moment. Just look at the Twitter files. And it’s worse in Canada, EU, Australia ... just in the west. Passing internet censorship laws and forcing rumble, X and Fb to limit speech (or else). It’s obvs where the fascists are, they aren’t hiding it
you are mischaracterizing liberals (dem party loyalists) as "far left". far left is dissenting progressives/marxist/socialist/working class empowerment / anti war / sufficient social safety net/ 'federal spending helping the general public rather than the oligarch class' supporters who have no voice in the US political system or corp media discourse.
i agree that the dem party leaders can be called facist (namely, they are neoliberals that call for 'economic free market for the sake of deregulation while not acknowledging the crony / monopolistic behavior of their lobbying benefactors' and practice ideological totalitarianism), but i argue that your working class liberal/dem party loyalist is simply a 'useful idiot' who champions ideals that largely bring no personal benefit to them, mostly in a performative way. while they may align with some left ideals, they live comfortably enough under the status quo that they wouldnt risk any true dissent and upheaval. they take govt on good faith and have an appeal to authority as their rhetoric is mostly reactionary, echoing whatever the corp media tells them to align with.
I'm confident that our government will do everything in its power to bring this conflict to a peaceful and amicable conclusion just like they have in the Ukraine…
No empathy for the prolonged inhumanity Palestinians have suffered from western govts. Bombing and invading an open air prison an easy “victory”. Even worthy of sending aircraft carriers to fight an imprisoned people. Detracts from NATO losses in Ukraine. Geopolitics reigns over this travesty. Yes my hearts bleed and I am sick to the core for the loss of so many lives. l
IIMO the current Hamas attack on Israel serves the same purpose as the 9/11 attack on the US. It provides a pretext for a terrorist empire nation to portray itself as the victim in order for it to unleash more terror on its victims. Remember the Poject for a New American Century required “A New Pearl Harbor” to accomplish its goal of Full Spectrum Dominance.
Im sorry but Hamas isn't fighting for liberation of the people, they don't care about Palestinians only as far as they can control them. They are holding hostage civilians to barter for the release of convicted terrorists. They haven't asked for liberation, they've asked to control the Palastinians who don't want to be ruled by Hamas. Rape of women, beheading, murder of children is not similar to the Warsaw riots where only invading soldiers were targeted. This is a terror campaign and is never justified. The Palestinians have been treated poorly and that should be corrected but not by these means.
What a refreshing break from NPR! Thanks for saying what so many cowards will not say but needs to be said. I cannot tolerate people who still support RFK claiming to be leftist.
The psycho Israeli state is currently bombing the hell out of Gaza.My heart is with the Palestinian people and I pray for your safety.This is all the fault of the international community that allows Israel to occupy Palestinian,build illegal settlements and get away with criminal activities.Bring the state of Israel to an international court.Do it now.
This horror is now out of control.The two sides are blurring into one dreadful scene of hate,vengeance and murder.Innocent children on both sides are suffering.As a mother,I demand that you reign in Israel because Israel has caused all this.This is what happens when a bully is allowed to carry on and nobody gives a damn.The victim retaliates for once and everyone is surprised.
I am of Palestinian decent. I know we are supposed to give up our homes and mineral rights, and land and youth and lives to these European Zionists and go quietly into a desert without futures. I know we are supposed realize International law somehow doesn’t apply to us and maybe ignore the pantheon of great thinkers and the body of International law regarding illegal occupation and the human right to throw off its yoke. But we retaliated. Like a beaten and broken spouse finally pushing her drunken spouse down the stairs. I also know that we will have to pay dearly. Israel, supplied by the United States will again disproportionately and indiscriminately slaughter us in the outdoor prison camp known as Gaza. While the US makes statements telling Israel to curb its enthusiasm and then hands it another $4 billion of American tax dollars for its “defense”. I know if there is a God,ours will be a lesser one.
Thank you for your support and your solidarity with the indigenous Palestinians in the struggle against Apartheid Israel. I fear genocide as these US supplied zealots descend on Gaza. I think its forces, armed with overwhelming fire power, sees this as a real opportunity to destroy a people while the world does nothing.
The West refers to the Palestinian “war” against their Israeli occupiers as “unprecedented,” in stark contrast to their continuous reference to the Russian “war” against the Ukrainian occupiers of Donetsk & Luhansk as “unprovoked.” Apparently even their version of reality cannot go that far.
" Khaled Meshal, the political leader of Hamas, gave a defiant speech on Saturday, vowing to build an Islamic Palestinian state on all the land of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.”
His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.”
I like your writing and agree, "The West's hypocrisy towards Gaza's breakout is stomach-turning". Although I am left shocked that you have tweeted "thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza" is a much greater act of savagery than "Hamas' attack on this festival of dance".
It seems absurd, if not obscene, to try to compare and contrast degrees of savagery, especially so if one compares acts of stomach-churning murderous violence with the indifference of young people at a dance party. Savagery remains savagery regardless of who perpetrates it. And for most people, I expect the reportedly wanton rape and murder committed by Hamas are simply beyond the pale.
IMO relativising savagery committed by Hamas will only undermine your writings about the injustices suffered by the Palestinians and highlighting the hypocrisy and failings of the media and international community.
===
Your tweet: @Johnathan_K_Cook Last edited 11:57 AM · Oct 9, 2023
"If there is an enduring image of how Israel so completely embodies the most obscene elements of settler colonialism, it is young, carefree Israelis holding a rave on the edge of an open-air prison, encaging 2 million Palestinians.
The Western media presents Hamas' attack on this festival of dance as the ultimate savagery. And savage it was. But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza.
My latest: The West's hypocrisy towards Gaza's breakout is stomach-turning
Actually, I wasn't so much thinking of the young people as us, you and me, who think it entirely unremarkable that Israeli youth would want to be partying next to a torture chamber. Our values are entirely corrupted. We are the savages. That we can't see that makes us all the more monstrous.
Thank you for your reply, Jonathan. Indeed, the juxtaposition of western hedonism and indifference next to such deprivation and subjugation is horrifying and I commend you for highlighting it. Nevertheless, the dialectic of comparing or contrasting degrees of savagery in the immediate aftermath of such violence seems obscene and ultimately pointless.
You can argue Western values are corrupted, and perhaps many in the West can't see that, and with a logical leap that may make westerners savages, though I fall short of arriving at your contention: "But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza."
"Much greater savagery"? What is this choice of language mirroring the hyperbole of Zionist apologists supposed to achieve? Can we not agree that brutal murder of defenceless women and children is the ultimate transgression in every culture (Palestinian and Israeli included) without trying to score points? There is something perverse about insisting when individuals on one side brutally take the lives of defenceless human beings on the other that it is a lesser form of savagery than that committed by the other side - albeit they are the preferred, and deserving, subject of your ire.
Why insist one is worse, why compare atrocities? I just don't understand why, and suspect most will understand it to be a form of moral relativism intended to offer a defence or justification for Hamas' killing. As such, I fear it undermines the righteousness of your criticism of Israel, with nothing to stop your counterparts making the same arguments in the opposite direction.
The danger and futility of arguing over whose transgression is more savage is that we de-emphasise the inherent cruelty of all such violent acts and risk losing our sense of humanity. Finally, I can only pray that I am never faced with such horrific circumstances and that I may retain my humanity if I should be.
I don't believe you are seeing the big picture here for what it is. The people who would view this on "X" or other platforms have mostly a very one-sided view in that they believe the line "unprovoked attack" and "terrorists attacks" as the truth and look no further and I believe it is these people who Jonathan has presented this to in hopes of the gut wrenching truth affecting their blindness.
My comment is explicitly in response to and aimed at the contention in Jonathan's Tweet:
"The Western media presents Hamas' attack on this festival of dance as the ultimate savagery. And savage it was. But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza."
In your comment, you have jumped from comparing qualitatively different acts (thinking/dancing/indifference vs acts of murderous violence) to comparing qualitatively similar things (killing) but quantitativley different (one thousand versus one).
I don't think I need to recalibrate by basic human morality, it doesn't matter to me which side or which holy cause is involved, I know that wantonly killing defenceless human beings is an atrocious transgression - period. If you think arguing which atrocious killings (Israeli or Palestinian) are qualitatively better serves a higher purpose, then have at it.
As Chris Hedges writes, "War is the Greatest Evil... War destroys all systems that sustain and nurture life–familial, economic, cultural, political, environmental, and social. Once war begins, no one, even those nominally in charge of waging war, can guess what will happen, how the war will develop, how it can drive armies and nations towards suicidal folly. There are no good wars. None. This includes World War II, which has been sanitized and mythologized to mendaciously celebrate American heroism, purity, and goodness. If truth is the first casualty in war, ambiguity is the second."
Just be careful that in your righteous bloodlust and with its moral gymnastics that you don't become that which you abhor.
Thank you Jonathan for this article, I've tweeted it several times. So many people on Twitter/X have lost the plot over this, the same way millions bought into covid. People I thought were critical thinkers.
I think you will find that the NAKBA preceded any entity called Hamas. Palestinians have been condemned to this living hell accompanied by the most sordid type of humiliation by the US Israel and the West. As we saw last night, the snipers casually taking aim at the children's heads who had the audacity to throw stones at troops, many actively enjoying this vile take on retaliation. Israel has become a soulless monster.
I think you have it wrong in this regard. Cancel culture - a western leftist ideology for crushing opposition to far left ideas, has crushed free speech in this country. For years there have been murmurs of Israel’s approach to Gaza. And as soon as there is criticism. The cancel culture approach calls them antisemitic. Shutting down discussion. You see this w race, gender, Covid, Ukraine, and vax. All conversation is shut down by the far left as a tool to change speech and thought. Free speech MUST be allowed for the health of our society. We MUST be able to discuss without fear of govt/tech/left attacks, the important concerns many have about sex, science, and war.
Ironically, cancel culture has backfired in this situation. The same leftist that shut every other conversation down, were also shut down when mentioning Gaza conditions.
However, now is NOT the time to be sympathizing w Hammas. What they’ve done is not forgivable.
What you describe has nothing to do with the “far-left.” If it looks left to you, that suggests you have been bamboozled by the narrative that places two very right-wing parties as representing opposing right and left interests. This is a false construct. Please do some research outside the mainstream sources to learn more about what a real left would look like. There hasn’t been a true left, major party in my lifetime, and I’m 78.
Oh I don’t disagree there are no longer independent parties. They all serve the rich. It’s all corrupt. The far left (of which i used to be) is now facist in the def sense. I don’t see the far right with that kind of control. Certainly some in their media, but the left (not dems or progressives) are something else. Seems more socialist and fascist than I remember them being. Perhaps you disagree with all that too.
No, you misunderstood what I wrote. I’m not confused at all. The left, especially the far left are fascist and not the same as dems or progressives and fascism runs the dem party at the moment. Just look at the Twitter files. And it’s worse in Canada, EU, Australia ... just in the west. Passing internet censorship laws and forcing rumble, X and Fb to limit speech (or else). It’s obvs where the fascists are, they aren’t hiding it
you are mischaracterizing liberals (dem party loyalists) as "far left". far left is dissenting progressives/marxist/socialist/working class empowerment / anti war / sufficient social safety net/ 'federal spending helping the general public rather than the oligarch class' supporters who have no voice in the US political system or corp media discourse.
i agree that the dem party leaders can be called facist (namely, they are neoliberals that call for 'economic free market for the sake of deregulation while not acknowledging the crony / monopolistic behavior of their lobbying benefactors' and practice ideological totalitarianism), but i argue that your working class liberal/dem party loyalist is simply a 'useful idiot' who champions ideals that largely bring no personal benefit to them, mostly in a performative way. while they may align with some left ideals, they live comfortably enough under the status quo that they wouldnt risk any true dissent and upheaval. they take govt on good faith and have an appeal to authority as their rhetoric is mostly reactionary, echoing whatever the corp media tells them to align with.
I'm confident that our government will do everything in its power to bring this conflict to a peaceful and amicable conclusion just like they have in the Ukraine…
https://youtu.be/enXib9aU6fs?feature=shared
No empathy for the prolonged inhumanity Palestinians have suffered from western govts. Bombing and invading an open air prison an easy “victory”. Even worthy of sending aircraft carriers to fight an imprisoned people. Detracts from NATO losses in Ukraine. Geopolitics reigns over this travesty. Yes my hearts bleed and I am sick to the core for the loss of so many lives. l
IIMO the current Hamas attack on Israel serves the same purpose as the 9/11 attack on the US. It provides a pretext for a terrorist empire nation to portray itself as the victim in order for it to unleash more terror on its victims. Remember the Poject for a New American Century required “A New Pearl Harbor” to accomplish its goal of Full Spectrum Dominance.
THANK YOU JONATHAN FOR THE CLEAR AND PRECISE PRESENTATION OF THE TRUTH!
Im sorry but Hamas isn't fighting for liberation of the people, they don't care about Palestinians only as far as they can control them. They are holding hostage civilians to barter for the release of convicted terrorists. They haven't asked for liberation, they've asked to control the Palastinians who don't want to be ruled by Hamas. Rape of women, beheading, murder of children is not similar to the Warsaw riots where only invading soldiers were targeted. This is a terror campaign and is never justified. The Palestinians have been treated poorly and that should be corrected but not by these means.
As I lived in an occupied country during WW2 I always sympathised with the people of Palestine and still do.
What a refreshing break from NPR! Thanks for saying what so many cowards will not say but needs to be said. I cannot tolerate people who still support RFK claiming to be leftist.
The psycho Israeli state is currently bombing the hell out of Gaza.My heart is with the Palestinian people and I pray for your safety.This is all the fault of the international community that allows Israel to occupy Palestinian,build illegal settlements and get away with criminal activities.Bring the state of Israel to an international court.Do it now.
This horror is now out of control.The two sides are blurring into one dreadful scene of hate,vengeance and murder.Innocent children on both sides are suffering.As a mother,I demand that you reign in Israel because Israel has caused all this.This is what happens when a bully is allowed to carry on and nobody gives a damn.The victim retaliates for once and everyone is surprised.
I am of Palestinian decent. I know we are supposed to give up our homes and mineral rights, and land and youth and lives to these European Zionists and go quietly into a desert without futures. I know we are supposed realize International law somehow doesn’t apply to us and maybe ignore the pantheon of great thinkers and the body of International law regarding illegal occupation and the human right to throw off its yoke. But we retaliated. Like a beaten and broken spouse finally pushing her drunken spouse down the stairs. I also know that we will have to pay dearly. Israel, supplied by the United States will again disproportionately and indiscriminately slaughter us in the outdoor prison camp known as Gaza. While the US makes statements telling Israel to curb its enthusiasm and then hands it another $4 billion of American tax dollars for its “defense”. I know if there is a God,ours will be a lesser one.
Thank you for your support and your solidarity with the indigenous Palestinians in the struggle against Apartheid Israel. I fear genocide as these US supplied zealots descend on Gaza. I think its forces, armed with overwhelming fire power, sees this as a real opportunity to destroy a people while the world does nothing.
The West refers to the Palestinian “war” against their Israeli occupiers as “unprecedented,” in stark contrast to their continuous reference to the Russian “war” against the Ukrainian occupiers of Donetsk & Luhansk as “unprovoked.” Apparently even their version of reality cannot go that far.
" Khaled Meshal, the political leader of Hamas, gave a defiant speech on Saturday, vowing to build an Islamic Palestinian state on all the land of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.”
His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html
The "poor us, we're doing what we're doing because we're occupied suffering victims" isn't going to work. Not this time.
So continued denial of their rights is your response. Wow.
There's no right to murder babies in order to wipe out a country you don't like, bro. Deal with it.
Dear Johnathan,
I like your writing and agree, "The West's hypocrisy towards Gaza's breakout is stomach-turning". Although I am left shocked that you have tweeted "thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza" is a much greater act of savagery than "Hamas' attack on this festival of dance".
It seems absurd, if not obscene, to try to compare and contrast degrees of savagery, especially so if one compares acts of stomach-churning murderous violence with the indifference of young people at a dance party. Savagery remains savagery regardless of who perpetrates it. And for most people, I expect the reportedly wanton rape and murder committed by Hamas are simply beyond the pale.
IMO relativising savagery committed by Hamas will only undermine your writings about the injustices suffered by the Palestinians and highlighting the hypocrisy and failings of the media and international community.
===
Your tweet: @Johnathan_K_Cook Last edited 11:57 AM · Oct 9, 2023
https://x.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/1711319855771623583
"If there is an enduring image of how Israel so completely embodies the most obscene elements of settler colonialism, it is young, carefree Israelis holding a rave on the edge of an open-air prison, encaging 2 million Palestinians.
The Western media presents Hamas' attack on this festival of dance as the ultimate savagery. And savage it was. But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza.
My latest: The West's hypocrisy towards Gaza's breakout is stomach-turning
https://middleeasteye.net/opinion/gaza-israel"
Actually, I wasn't so much thinking of the young people as us, you and me, who think it entirely unremarkable that Israeli youth would want to be partying next to a torture chamber. Our values are entirely corrupted. We are the savages. That we can't see that makes us all the more monstrous.
Yeah, those youth definitely got what they deserved.
Thank you for your reply, Jonathan. Indeed, the juxtaposition of western hedonism and indifference next to such deprivation and subjugation is horrifying and I commend you for highlighting it. Nevertheless, the dialectic of comparing or contrasting degrees of savagery in the immediate aftermath of such violence seems obscene and ultimately pointless.
You can argue Western values are corrupted, and perhaps many in the West can't see that, and with a logical leap that may make westerners savages, though I fall short of arriving at your contention: "But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza."
"Much greater savagery"? What is this choice of language mirroring the hyperbole of Zionist apologists supposed to achieve? Can we not agree that brutal murder of defenceless women and children is the ultimate transgression in every culture (Palestinian and Israeli included) without trying to score points? There is something perverse about insisting when individuals on one side brutally take the lives of defenceless human beings on the other that it is a lesser form of savagery than that committed by the other side - albeit they are the preferred, and deserving, subject of your ire.
Why insist one is worse, why compare atrocities? I just don't understand why, and suspect most will understand it to be a form of moral relativism intended to offer a defence or justification for Hamas' killing. As such, I fear it undermines the righteousness of your criticism of Israel, with nothing to stop your counterparts making the same arguments in the opposite direction.
The danger and futility of arguing over whose transgression is more savage is that we de-emphasise the inherent cruelty of all such violent acts and risk losing our sense of humanity. Finally, I can only pray that I am never faced with such horrific circumstances and that I may retain my humanity if I should be.
I don't believe you are seeing the big picture here for what it is. The people who would view this on "X" or other platforms have mostly a very one-sided view in that they believe the line "unprovoked attack" and "terrorists attacks" as the truth and look no further and I believe it is these people who Jonathan has presented this to in hopes of the gut wrenching truth affecting their blindness.
My comment is explicitly in response to and aimed at the contention in Jonathan's Tweet:
"The Western media presents Hamas' attack on this festival of dance as the ultimate savagery. And savage it was. But the much greater savagery is thinking it normal to party in full view of the torture chamber that is Gaza."
In your comment, you have jumped from comparing qualitatively different acts (thinking/dancing/indifference vs acts of murderous violence) to comparing qualitatively similar things (killing) but quantitativley different (one thousand versus one).
I don't think I need to recalibrate by basic human morality, it doesn't matter to me which side or which holy cause is involved, I know that wantonly killing defenceless human beings is an atrocious transgression - period. If you think arguing which atrocious killings (Israeli or Palestinian) are qualitatively better serves a higher purpose, then have at it.
As Chris Hedges writes, "War is the Greatest Evil... War destroys all systems that sustain and nurture life–familial, economic, cultural, political, environmental, and social. Once war begins, no one, even those nominally in charge of waging war, can guess what will happen, how the war will develop, how it can drive armies and nations towards suicidal folly. There are no good wars. None. This includes World War II, which has been sanitized and mythologized to mendaciously celebrate American heroism, purity, and goodness. If truth is the first casualty in war, ambiguity is the second."
Just be careful that in your righteous bloodlust and with its moral gymnastics that you don't become that which you abhor.
Thank you Jonathan for this article, I've tweeted it several times. So many people on Twitter/X have lost the plot over this, the same way millions bought into covid. People I thought were critical thinkers.
The chickens have come home to roost, israel.